By giving us your cell phone number, we will text message you as soon as Senate Republicans trigger the “nuclear option.” Embedded in that text message will be a link to the Senate switchboard. With the push of a couple buttons, your call – along with thousands of others – goes right through to the corridors of power demanding preservation of the filibuster.
This the first time flash mob technology’s been used for political purposes. Which means it’s just cute enough to get some press.
Both Matt Yglesias and Kevin Drum believe, based upon findings in the recent Pew poll, that we would be better off if we liberals lightened up and accepted the 10 Commandments on public buildings and certain other somewhat trivial religious issues. I’m not sure how we do this, considering that this has been the interpretation of the courts rather than a legislative battle, but I’m sure that if we just give in on Pricilla Owen et al, we’ll see some change on this and other issues of importance to the Religious Right. I’m also sure we can then cherry pick those issues that are really important to us, but I’m not certain at all if the principle on which we make our argument will still be operative once we’ve tossed it aside for these trivial reasons.
As it happens, I couldn’t care less whether the 10 Commandments are displayed on public buildings as long as all religions are treated equally. I certainly hope that when a Hindu requests that his religion be equally represented that we liberals will also uphold his rights. Otherwise, we will have established a state religion, which I think is a really bad idea considering the millenium’s worth of blood that was spilled by our forebears in Europe over these issues.
Unfortunately, it seems we are on course to do just that. Or at least establish a “Judeo-Christian umbrella” state religion.
A federal appeals court has ruled that a Virginia county can exclude a member of a minority religion from offering prayers at county board meetings — even though adherents of “Judeo-Christian” religions are allowed to lead invocations.
In a unanimous ruling April 14, a three-judge panel of the 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled against county resident Cynthia Simpson, whom officials denied the opportunity to offer prayers at meetings of the Chesterfield County Board of Supervisors.
Simpson is a practitioner of Wicca, a neo-pagan religion that she has described as interchangeable with witchcraft. She is a leader in a Wiccan congregation in the suburban county near Richmond. When she asked to be put on a list of those who could lead invocations at board meetings, the county attorney told her she would not be allowed, claiming that “Chesterfield’s non-sectarian invocations are traditionally made to a divinity that is consistent with the Judeo-Christian tradition.”
Simpson, working with attorneys from a pair of civil-liberties groups, sued the county. A federal district judge in Richmond sided with her, ruling in 2003 that the practice unconstitutionally discriminated against religions that do not stem from the dominant Western monotheistic traditions.
But the latest ruling reverses that decision, citing the Supreme Court’s 1985 Marsh vs. Chambers decision allowing “non-sectarian” legislative prayers before the Nebraska legislature. Judge J. Harvie Wilkinson III, authoring the 4th Circuit’s opinion, said the content of the prayers Chesterfield County officials allowed was broad enough, and the fact that Simpson was barred from offering one was immaterial to the case.
“The Judeo-Christian tradition is, after all, not a single faith but an umbrella covering many faiths,” Wilkinson wrote. “We need not resolve the parties’ dispute as to its precise extent, as Chesterfield County has spread it wide enough in this case to include Islam. For these efforts, the County should not be made the object of constitutional condemnation.”
Wilkinson has been widely rumored to be among the candidates for a Supreme Court appointment, should any slots on that body come open before the end of President Bush’s term.
Apparently, all religions that fall under the Judeo-Christian “umbrella” are non-sectarian, which I suppose is a form of progress. But you can’t just let any old religion be officially recognized in public functions. Ones that aren’t drawn from the old testament, anyway.
Clearly, just like guns and the death penalty and dozens of other things, the Democrats are going to cave on this issue. And in and of itself, it will not make much difference. Ever since the entire congress stood on the steps of the congress and sang “God Bless America” I knew that any pretense toward religious neutrality was over.
But, what makes anyone think that this will be enough to sway any votes or stop the rest of the theocratic agenda? Are people voting on the single issue of the 10 Commandments and if we give in on that we can start talking about the minimum wage? Just as people like Kevin and Matt and I don’t care deeply about whether the 10 commandments are displayed or a creche is put in front of city hall at Christmas, I doubt whether the full 70%+ of Americans who thinks the 10 Commandments should be allowed on public buyildings actually vote on the issue. Most people agree, just like us, that it isn’t a big deal — all except those who are fighting for the principle of it. Those people aren’t changing sides politically — and the rest just don’t give enough of a damn to change their voting behavior over it.
The danger is that the ones who are fighting on the principle that Christianity should be part of civic life are also the ones who are not giving any ground. And they won’t. They are thinking long term — patiently chipping away at the principle of separation of church and state, while the rest of us say “lighten up” to the ACLU, who is taking a principled stance on trivial issues so that we can make a consistent argument when it comes to fighting for the important ones. Like teaching creationism in the public schools.
As Matt points out, the other interesting finding in the PEW poll is that a majority believe that creationism should be taught along side evolution in the schools. (I suspect that most people do not realize that the goal of the Christian Right is to replace the teaching of evolution, and think instead that creationism is a worthy subject for a class on comparative religions, not science. But that’s just a hunch.) Kevin says we shouldn’t give in on that, but really, what’s to stop it?
I realize that we liberals believe that this is a matter of teaching fact based science as opposed to faith based religious belief, but the truth is that schools that aren’t funded by public money can teach creationism till the cows come home already. The state cannot compel anyone not to teach religion in place of science in the public schools unless we believe there is a constitutional prohibition against the schools promoting one religion over another.
So, on what will we hang our hat on once we’ve decided that religion — or more specifically the “judeo-christian umbrella” — is sanctioned by the state in regards to prayer in schools, the 10 commandments on public buildings and public displays of religion on community ground. These things are all trivial in themselves (although for some people, putting little kids in the position of having to pray or abstain is unconcionable.) But regardless of whether each little instance of religious tradition in the public square is in itself pernicious, taken together, if sanctified by the courts, it erodes one of the basic tenets of our system, which is the prohibition against the establishment of state religion. And that adds up to a greenlight to teach creationism or promote any other Christian dogma — with my tax dollars.
On a pracical political level, I might point out that electorally, getting religion may not be the bonanza everyone thinks it will be long term. The largest growing religious cohort in the United States is “non-religious”, doubling in the past decade and growing stronger. And it’s particularly true in the western states where there is a growing preference for “spirituality” over formal religion.
Contrast this with the studies that show Protestants losing ground for decades, perhaps stabilizing now, but certainly not growing, while Catholics remain fairly stable, but divided politically. The Barna group, which does the most in-depth polling on religion in America recently wrote:
“There does not seem to be revival taking place in America. Whether that is measured by church attendance, born again status, or theological purity, the statistics simply do not reflect a surge of any noticeable proportions.
If we are to look at the electoral landscape, we will see that the hard core religious cohort is most influential in the south, which is no surprise. But if you take a look at this interesting map, created by USA today, you’ will see that “non-religious” is a rather large minority in the west and midwest swing states; when you combine it with liberal mainline protestant churches and liberal catholics you will see that the Christian Right is not the electoral powerhouse it’s cracked up to be. We should not fear them like this.
And needless to say, as our ethnic make-up continues to change, in which Buddhists, Hindus, Confucians and others continue to immigrate and pass their belief systems to their children, we are going to see a continuance of the explosive growth in those religions and philosophies as we’ve seen in the last thirty years. There is a huge potential for strife in our future if we continue down this road of establishing the “Judeo-Christian” umbrella as a quasi official religion.
There is good evidence that we are the victims of Republican hype on this religious issue, which perpetuates itself in the servile media, creating a faddish obsession with religiousity at a time when more people are actually leaving religion than coming into it. Like the phony campaign against Christmas, they are tying us up in knots with this theocratic correctness. For both practical and principled reasons, we shouldn’t let them do it.
And the “revisionist historians” proceed apace. Via Ted at Crooked Timber I see that the Highpockets and the boys at Powerline have endorsed the idea that the British should have held out against “Ghandi and his rabble” — to prevent violence, of course, which is why all good white men have to keep the wogs in line, don’t you know. Didn’t the Raj have any purple ink to pacify the little bastards? Dear me.
“It’s great to see someone standing up for colonialism, especially British colonialism. I agree wholeheartedly with this observation, for example:
Had Britain had the courage to face down Gandhi and his rabble a few years longer, the tragedy that was the partititon of India might have been avoided.” (quoting Roger Kimball.)
But really dear boy, while we’re praising British colonialism, let’s not stop there. One can’t help but observe that if they had just held out against Washington and his rabble a few years longer the tragedy of the civil war might have been prevented. Failure of nerve, I’m afraid. Yes, yes, it would have been bloody, but what isn’t, I say? Best to keep the swinish multitudes under one’s thumbs. (Of course, except for the slaves, the Americans were white, weren’t they? Makes a difference; indeed it does.)
Hilzoy at Obsidion Wings offers the substantive response for trolls who require one.
I think the thing I love most about the right wingers is their commitment to principle and intellectual consistency. For instance, on the Un Foundation’s blog UN Dispatch, Peter Daou took issue with Roger Simon’s obsessing over the Oil For Food program, while never having a kind word to say about the good things the United Nations does around the world. The right blogosphere is incensed that he would dare to tell a blogger what he should blog about, and besides the oil for food scandal is, like, really really bad.
Now call me crazy, but I seem to remember some wingnuts bleating every five minutes or so about how the news media is obsessing about all the “bad news” in Iraq to exclusion of the “good.” It’s been their mantra for the last two years as a matter of fact. John Tierney of the NY Times even said just the other day that we shouldn’t talk about the suicide bombers because it gives the wrong impression — that suicide bombers are everywhere and people’s lives are threatened. Even though the Iraqi people’s lives actually are threatened and there actually are suicide bombers everywhere. Best not to harp on the bad news.
Here we have an institution, the UN, that is enmeshed in a corruption scandal — and not one that appears to be unprecedented or shocking by corruption scandal standards. Certainly, it cannot be compared to the serious everyday violence that is taking place in Iraq. And yet we have right wingers obsessing about it to the exclusion of all its substantial and important good works around the world — while they constantly complain that the news media focuses too much on wanton violence and social chaos in a country we occupy, to the exclusion of insubstantial and meaningless happy talk about schools being painted (for 2 million dollars a piece.)
The sad fact is that the UN Oil for Food scandal is becoming another one of these right wing masturbatory obsessions — like Christmas in Cambodia and Vince Foster. There are always a few of these hobby horses out there, nobody knows why.
Meanwhile the UN actually does a lot of really important work, unlike the Pottery Barn debacle in Iraq, where we are supposed to get credit for fixing what we broke. Here are just a handful of the issues the UN has been working on while the wingnuts blather on:
This right wing UN fixation is another one of those issues that goes all the way back to the Truman era. I’ll say it again; anybody who thinks the Republicans are the party of new ideas are sadly mistaken. They haven’t even joined the last half of the 20th century yet.
Everybody’s talking about the article in The Nation about Dr. David Hager, the Bush appointee to the Advisory Committee for Reproductive Health Drugs in the Food and Drug Administration. His wife Linda says he forcibly sodomized her. Often while she was unconcious due to her narcolepsy.
Now, this would noramlly be just a run of the mill GOP hypocrite story that doesn’t deserve any more than a little laugh over beers. But it should be emphasized that many of of us knew Dr Hager was a scumbag when he was appointed back in 2002. And he has subsequently proven to be the extremist we knew he was by personally blocking, in unprecedented fashion, the FDA’s decision to make Plan B, the morning after pill, a quasi OTC drug.
But, he was a very religious man so everyone had to shut up and let him have a job he was abjectly unqualified for because to do otherwise would be theocratically incorrect.
Dr Hager was primarily known at the time as the writer of scriptural cures for women’s reproductive problems. But his cure for infidelity was just plain creepy:
Picture Jesus coming into the room. He walks over to you and folds you gently into his arms. He tousles your hair and kisses you gently on the cheek. . . . Let this love begin to heal you from the inside out.”
I’m no Christian, but that sounds damned close to blasphemy to me.
Between the mule fucking, the narcophelia and the sexual fantasies about Jesus, I’m beginning to feel like a provincial schoolkid. To think that we impeached a president over a couple of half baked blowjobs in a hallway — and listened to years and years of non-stop moralizing from these Republican perverts. I’m a pretty sophisticated person and I don’t usually pass judgements on people’s fantasy lives or their sexuality. But the Christian Right with their wild shedding of the most shocking of sexual taboos are starting to freak me out. And I’m from California.
I knew it was over when Bush’s fawning sycophant, Dennis Miller, tried to pass himself off as a libertarian on Jon Stewart’s show a couple of weeks ago. In fact, I found that little moment quite uplifting. There is nobody more trendy, more “finger in the wind,” more faddish than the Rant man himself. If he’s climbing off the conservative bun-boy train, then the zeitgeist has definitely shifted.
In honor of this great post by James Wolcott called “Godless Heathens Get No Respect”, I am hereby no longer going to be polite or even mildly respectful to the morons of the Christian Right.
As Christian fundamentalism becomes more intrusive and oppressive, Pat Robertson’s odious discharge being just the latest example, it is up to us adherents to reason, law, and unchained thought to revive and sustain the reputations of America’s great individualists and nonconformists. It’s understandable that Democratic candidates, sincere and insincere, feel they have no choice but to drag faith around with them like a little red wagon, but the we non-office-seeking nonbelievers are under no such obligation, and have been accomodating for too long.
He is right. There is a long tradition of religious irreverance in this country and I’m tired of holding back out of some misplaced sense that I’ll offend some religious person somewhere. I’ll cast my lot with this guy:
There is one notable thing about our Christianity: bad, bloody, merciless, money-grabbing and predatory as it is – in our country particularly, and in all other Christian countries in a somewhat modified degree – it is still a hundred times better than the Christianity of the Bible, with its prodigious crime- the invention of Hell. Measured by our Christianity of to-day, bad as it is, hypocritical as it is, empty and hollow as it is, neither the Deity nor His Son is a Christian, nor qualified for that moderately high place. Ours is a terrible religion. The fleets of the world could swim in spacious comfort in the innocent blood it has spilt.”
Mark Twain
Back in the late 70’s the fundamentalist bozos were wandering around church parking lots like a bunch of blind salmon, sending money to perverts like Jim Bakker and Jimmy Swaggert and handling snakes around children. Paul Weyrich and Morton Blackwell knew just what to do. Make them into Republicans. And now they are the very backbone of the Party.
Kevin Drum wonders what Bush’s bizarre Yalta blathering was code for. We all know that when Junior dredges up some obscure historical reference (like his strange interjection of “Dred Scott” into the debates) you can be sure he’s speaking in tongues to somebody. The question is who and why.
I think it’s just possible that the neos are getting ready to turn up the heat on their old nemesis, Russia. They will not rest until some commie blood is spilled by the forces of good. And terrorism just isn’t a grand enough enemy for these guys. It’s messy, it’s hard to define, we can’t defeat it with bombs and military invasion. I think it’s been much too hard for these guys to get their nut with this sneaky, asymetrical 21st century enemy, and the Iraqis just aren’t cooperating enough with their “liberation” to be truly satisfying. Time to get back to basics.
If we’re lucky, maybe before he checked in at his new job, Wolfowitz dusted off his 1992 plan to invade Russia. (Oh, excuse me, “defend our vital interests in Lithuania.”) Now that was a war plan, goddamit.
STUDY OF POTENTIAL THREATS PRESUMES U.S. WOULD DEFEND LITHUANIA
Barton Gellman Washington Post Staff Writer February 20, 1992; Page a1
A classified study prepared as the basis for the Pentagon’s budgetary planning through the end of the century casts Russia as the gravest potential threat to U.S. vital interests and presumes the United States would spearhead a NATO counterattack if Russia launched an invasion of Lithuania U.S. intervention in Lithuania, which would reverse decades of American restraint in the former Soviet Union’s Baltic sphere of influence, is one of seven hypothetical roads to war that the Pentagon studied to help the military services size and justify their forces through 1999. In the study, the Pentagon neither advocates nor predicts any specific conflict.
The Lithuanian scenario contemplates a major war by land, sea and air in which 24 NATO divisions, 70 fighter squadrons and six aircraft carrier battle groups would keep the Russian navy “bottled up in the eastern Baltic,” bomb supply lines in Russia and use armored formations to expel Russian forces from Lithuania. The authors state that Russia is unlikely to respond with nuclear weapons, but they provide no basis for that assessment.
[…]
National security officials outside the Pentagon sharply disputed the scenario’s premise, noting that the United States never recognized the Soviet Union’s World War II conquest of the Baltic states but steered clear of interference there for fear of nuclear war. One State Department official said the Pentagon scenario “strikes me like being more of a Tom Clancy novel.” Another official with responsibility for European security policy said flatly, “We have no vital interest in Lithuania.”
[…]
Wolfowitz, who requested the scenarios in an Aug. 10 memorandum, wrote that they would “guide program formulation and evaluation.” Wolfowitz asked for two scenarios centering on Russia: a smaller, more rapidly developing threat based on the consolidation of existing Russian forces, and a much larger, more slowly developing threat premised on “reconstitution” of a Russian-based hostile superpower.
The reconstitution scenario names no adversary, citing only a “resurgent/emergent global threat,” or REGT. It describes a five-year U.S. buildup that would come in response to a Russian buildup, could exceed peak Cold War levels and could lead to a major global war.
The Lithuania Scenario
The Lithuania scenario is a potential diplomatic embarrassment, emerging as it has in the aftermath of a joint declaration Feb. 1 by President Bush and Russian President Boris Yeltsin that “Russia and the United States do not regard each other as potential adversaries.”
It is also the only European contingency in the Pentagon document. Congressional advocates of drawing U.S. forces in Europe below the 150,000 troop level set by the Pentagon for the mid-1990s can be expected to challenge the realism of the scenario and assert that no plausible mission remains for large-scale NATO forces.
Finally, the Lithuania scenario is the most demanding single military contingency in the Pentagon document and, therefore, a potentially controversial yardstick for the military force required in the late 1990s. A working group from the Joint Staff’s planning directorate, the Defense Intelligence Agency and the office of program analysis and evaluation estimated it would take 7 1/3 divisions, 45 fighter squadrons and six aircraft carriers to fight the Russians.
[…]
REGT Scenario
A “resurgent/emergent global threat,” or REGT, becomes capable of threatening U.S. interests worldwide. According to national security sources, the scenario refers to Russia, with or without other former Soviet republics.
The REGT develops into an “authoritarian and strongly anti-democratic” government over about three years, beginning in 1994. After four or five years of military expansion, the REGT is ready to begin “a second Cold War” by the year 2001, or launch a major global war that could last for years. Pentagon planners assume that the United States would spend years of political debate before beginning a buildup in response to the REGT. “Reconstitution” of U.S. forces, as the Pentagon calls the buildup, would include expanded recruitment, weapons modernization and greatly increased production, and, if necessary, the draft.
No outcome is projected for a global war.
As you may have begun to notice, the right wing doesn’t adapt well to change. They are still talking about McCarthyism and hippies and any number of other anachronistic topics. They are obsessed with being right, not only today, but fifty years ago. They still call liberals commies. It would not surprise me in the least if they are going to turn their attention back to their mortal enemy. Once a commie, always a commie. Hasn’t that always been their motto?
And if Bush’s pal Vladimir doesn’t co-operate, we can always start asking “who lost China?” That one never gets old.
The Talking Dog has posted another one of his interesting interviews with attorneys for alleged unlawful combatants, this one with Joshua Dratel, the lawyer for the Australian David Hicks, who is being held at Guantanamo. Read the whole thing, but this passage is particularly stunning:
Talking Dog: Can you briefly summarize what you in particular find unfair about the military commission process at Guantanimo?
Joshua Dratel: Basically, there are no rules. The Uniform Code of Military Justice, which governs court-martials — that’s been thrown out. No standards at all. Total arbitrariness. No efforts at anything resembling fairness. Let’s start with evidence and proof. People don’t know this, of course.The government’s “proof” consists entirely of interrogators reading from reports of their interrogations– without any basis to challenge the underlying accounts of witnesses, such as the witnesses themselves (who have frequently been shipped out of Guantanamo) or their interpreters, or the conditions under which the statements were taken, which were frequently, to put it politely, “coercive.” Just statements from the detainees themselves– regardless of whether obtained from abuse, or coercion, even rising to torture. In the commissions, you simply can’t challenge them– you don’t have access to the witnesses.
Talking Dog: I understand you spent a fair amount of time challenging the panels and their members themselves.
Joshua Dratel: I’m glad you brought that up. That’s another area of unfairness. In a military felony case– that’s any case where the penalty might be more than one year in prison– and remember that these detainees might get life in prison or even death sentences– you need at least 5 panel members under the UCMJ. Under the commissions arbitrary set-ups, they envisioned between 3 and 7 panel members. In David’s case, they planned 5 panelists and one alternate. But we challenged the panelists, for a variety of reasons, and 3 challenges were granted. We thought they would appoint 2 more officers to bring the panel back to 5, but they didn’t. Now this makes a huge difference. And that’s because under military rules, you need a 2/3 vote for conviction. On a 5 member panel, that means you need only coNvince 2 out of 5 for an acquittal; on a 3 member panel, of course, its 2 out of 3… a much higher burden, and not one required by the UCMJ. Conversely, the government’s burden is halved: while it needs four of five votes to convict in a five-member commission, it needs only two in a three-member commission.
And then we get into the issue of the fact that in a court-martial,there is one judge, and the panel acts as kind of a jury. Under this set-up, the whole commission was supposed to make rulings. Of course, they had no legal training (except for one officer, Colonel Brownback). But the panelists couldn’t absorb certain basic legal concepts– such as ‘ex post facto” and “jurisdiction”. For example, if a citizien of Country A (we’ll call it “Australia”) is fighting in Company B (we’ll call it Taliban Afghanistan) against Country C (we’ll call it the Northern Alliance of Afghanistan), in Hicks’ case, supposedly he was in a fox-hole guarding a Taliban tank position or something, before he was picked up by the Northern Alliance, then how does Country D, the United States, get jurisdiction over him? I mean, the United States has no jurisdiction over Hicks and his alleged actions– completely lost on this panel. Of course, the panelists’ response was “you mean he just gets away with it?” But the crimes he is accused of were not war crimes– he was not even accused of shooting at soldiers– as if that were a war crime, which it is not. At worst, it was either a domestic offense (like treason) in Afghanistan, or acting as a soldier of a military, in which case, he wouldn’t be guilty of a crime at all, but a combatant subject to the Geneva Conventions. Also, of course, the evidence also is illegitimate because of the manner in which it was obtained– all consisting of statements of detainees made under coercive interrogation or even torture. At the motions argument, we wanted to call witnesses who were experts on international and military law. But the panel didn’t want to hear any of them.
Finally, of course, Rumsfeld has controlled the appeals process by stacking it with his own hand-picked cronies. The objections to the process are not just procedural. The government’s entire case against everyone is based on interrogations of other detainees. Nothing else.
Even the Star Chamber was mostly made up of actual lawyers and judges. As we get farther and farther away from 9/11 doesn’t this stuff seem crazier and crazier? I always thought that we behaved like a dumb wounded giant lashing out indiscriminately, but as time went on I assumed that we would pull ourselves together and begin to behave rationally. But we are not. Guantanamo is a gulag.
One other little bit of the interview I’d like to highlight is this:
Talking Dog: Do you think that by and large the American people really care about this issue at all, and why do you think that is?
Joshua Dratel: They care about some of these issues in the abstract, but they have no idea how things are being done at Guanatanamo. These are not proven terrorists. There has been no determination of any value at all. You would hope that Americans would care about torturing the innocent. Certainly, there would be concern for OUR personnel in the hands of another nation. I’ll tell you that the military people are very concerned. They are concerned about the reciprocal effects of our runnning a process that isn’t fair, or capable of making objective determinations, even if no Americans are subject to them. But think about when it’s our personnel– such as when Private Lynch was captured– how we demanded that she and others be treated per the Geneva Conventions. In the future, how can we make demands like that with a straight face– or will others pay any heed when we ignore the conventions and flout the rules ourselves?
I don’t think people give a damn, or at least most people. The Pew Poll released this week found:
Republicans have succeeded in attracting two types of swing voters who could not be more different,” the study reports. “The common threads are a highly favorable opinion of President Bush personally and support for an aggressive military stance against potential enemies of the U.S.”
Bush voters are just fine with torture, probably even of other Americans, but particularly of “the enemy.” And I doubt that they have any problem with the double standard of saying that you may not torture ours, but we can torture yours. God is on our side, after all, not theirs.
As you know, I’m gifted with from time to time by e-mails from a right winger. Here’s what he had to say about torture recently:
On Sunday night “60 Minutes” did its 10th liberal anti-American segment in a row about the war in Iraq. This time it was about how we torture people at Guantanimo (GITMO.) The explosive incident in question, to which there was a direct and credible witness, involved using an American woman to sexually humiliate, in theory, sexually repressed Muslim prisoner.
The fist logical response to this has to be: if it were me or my son I’d thank God loudly and eternally to have such complete wimps as torturers. Second, the American version of torture might even be fun. Indeed, American torture is often, although I’m sure not always, a joke. We saw it in Abu Ghraib. In the same prison where Saddam Hussein would make movies (now for sale world wide) of his guards slowly cutting off the tongues and limbs of fully conscious human beings, or breaking as many bones as possible with a club, again on a fully conscious human being, the Americans would make their prisoners get into a gym class style human pyramid (no mat to cushion their tender knees), and, they would be naked too, as if to really insure that the torture was really really severe. Again, all a rational person can say is: if it were me or my son I’d pray to God to be imprisoned by the very gentle and civilized Americans.
The above, of course seems obvious to a monkey, although it is apparently not so obvious to a liberal. But it does give rise to another important question: why do the liberals devote more time to their delirious idea that is worse to torture someone, American style, than to kill him on the battlefield? After all, we are killing a lot more people in this war than were ever made to wear female underwear at Abu Ghraib? On the battlefield you die, and often very slowly and painfully. If the bullet hits you in the heart you are very lucky. More likely an Iraqi insurgent will be severely wounded by a bullet or explosion that leaves a significant part of his body on the battlefield, and only then will he slowly bleed to death or slowly be infected to death. This is far worse than a gymnastics class, in women’s underwear no less, at Abu Ghraib, and yet it gets less attention from the liberal press?
I suppose the liberals prefer to focus on torture because it plays upon a universal subconscious fear of genuine torture that we all share. It is highly manipulative, and fraudulent though, to influence foreign policy in this emotionally deceptive way. Real thinking should prevail, not liberal blather. What remains inexplicable is that liberals largely ignore our real torture. When we pick up a high level al-Qaida official such as al-Libby who almost certainly has information on upcoming attacks on Americans, we obviously torture him, for real, to save lives, but this remains mostly off the liberal radar screen; perhaps because it is obviously necessary and obviously too nasty to talk about? Liberal outrage at the sex play at Abu Ghraib makes the point almost as well while being far more palatable to a broad audience.
He goes on to say that torture becomes problematic because the interrogators can’t keep their mouths shut so it lets the enemy know what they will need to withstand (and gives liberal traitors ammunition) thus ruining the whole torture scheme. I don’t know how many people there are like this in the country, but you can be pretty sure that all of them who voted, voted for George W. Bush. One expects this kind of talk from wingnuts.
But I also have to suspect that some version of this “tortured” logic was used by those swing voters who were so impressed by Commander Codpiece and his “aggressive military stance.” And he knows it:
Q Mr. President, under the law, how would you justify the practice of renditioning, where U.S. agents who brought terror suspects abroad, taking them to a third country for interrogation? And would you stand for it if foreign agents did that to an American here?
THE PRESIDENT: That’s a hypothetical, Mark. We operate within the law and we send people to countries where they say they’re not going to torture the people.
But let me say something: the United States government has an obligation to protect the American people. It’s in our country’s interests to find those who would do harm to us and get them out of harm’s way. And we will do so within the law, and we will do so in honoring our commitment not to torture people. And we expect the countries where we send somebody to, not to torture, as well. But you bet, when we find somebody who might do harm to the American people, we will detain them and ask others from their country of origin to detain them. It makes sense. The American people expect us to do that. We — we still at war.
One of my — I’ve said this before to you, I’m going to say it again, one of my concerns after September the 11th is the farther away we got from September the 11th, the more relaxed we would all become and assume that there wasn’t an enemy out there ready to hit us. And I just can’t let the American people — I’m not going to let them down by assuming that the enemy is not going to hit us again. We’re going to do everything we can to protect us. And we’ve got guidelines. We’ve got law. But you bet, Mark, we’re going to find people before they harm us.
In other words, “don’t worry your pretty little heads about torture; we do what we need to do.” And the security moms swoon.
I’m hoping that when we begin our great Democratic moral crusade against dirty talk on TV (to show empathy to all these parents who vote Republican because we haven’t done enough about Britney and Janet’s nipples) that we can find a few minutes to also talk about why torture is wrong. I know it isn’t as appealing to the religious among us who are so worried about their children being exposed to sex, but it might just save this country’s soul, nonetheless.
Via NewsHounds, who watch Fox so we don’t have to:
Last night, anti-abortion extremist Neal Horsley was a guest on The Alan Colmes Show, a FOX News radio program. The topic was an interesting one – whether or not an internet service provider should allow Horsley to post the names of abortion doctors on his website. Horsley does that as a way of targeting them and one doctor has been killed. In the course of the interview, however, Colmes asked Horsley about his background, including a statement that he had admitted to engaging in homosexual and bestiality sex.
At first, Horsley laughed and said, “Just because it’s printed in the media, people jump to believe it.”
“Is it true?” Colmes asked.
“Hey, Alan, if you want to accuse me of having sex when I was a fool, I did everything that crossed my mind that looked like I…”
AC: “You had sex with animals?”
NH: “Absolutely. I was a fool. When you grow up on a farm in Georgia, your first girlfriend is a mule.”
AC: “I’m not so sure that that is so.”
NH: “You didn’t grow up on a farm in Georgia, did you?”
AC: “Are you suggesting that everybody who grows up on a farm in Georgia has a mule as a girlfriend?”
NH: It has historically been the case. You people are so far removed from the reality… Welcome to domestic life on the farm…”
Colmes said he thought there were a lot of people in the audience who grew up on farms, are living on farms now, raising kids on farms and “and I don’t think they are dating Elsie right now. You know what I’m saying?”
Horsley said, “You experiment with anything that moves when you are growing up sexually. You’re naive. You know better than that… If it’s warm and it’s damp and it vibrates you might in fact have sex with it.”
Unless it was male, which would be so gay.
Hey, the First Lady was joking about this stuff a week ago and all the wingnuts said that it was just an old farm joke and it’s another sign of how out of touch we coastal elites are that we thought that the right wing Christians would find anything unwholesome about it. Now I understand what they mean. Bestiality is an integral part of the “heartland lifestyle.”
It turns that in this instance at least, they are right about liberals not understanding the red state culture. I am way out of touch with the mulefucking traditions in Real America.
Note to the DLC: Have next presidential candidate hump small pony on Meat The Press.
