As of April 26, 2024 Donald Trump hasn’t stopped violating his Judge Merchan gag order. Until the punishments are strong enough to make him stop, we need to take steps to stop and punish his followers, who make threats on his behalf.
Marcy Wheeler was on the Nicole Sandler show last week talking about Donald Trump’s systematic threatening of his critics and how normalized political violence is for anybody who comes up against Donald Trump. I’ve written about, and asked a lot of questions about, how threats online and on social media have an impact and what can be done about them. It was great to hear from Marcy about the scope of the problem, how it involves the legal system, the media, social media and learn some names of major players who make threats on social media and get away with it.
“There is nobody who is on the wrong side of Donald Trump who is not stalked, who does not face mob violence, and it is systematic.
Marcy Wheeler, on the Nicole Sandler show 4-19-2024
There’s a group of these people, Jesse Watters, we talked about. Jack Posobiec is always involved. Mike Cernovich is always involved. These are people in Roger Stone’s world. They have the ability to go find these people, they have the ability to stoke violence, they have the ability to terrify people. And it has been going on for years.
She points out how for the right it’s okay if it’s just Lisa Page and Peter Strzok. If it’s Michael Cohen, it’s okay. If it’s Marie Yovanovitch, it’s okay. If it’s the whistleblower, it’s okay. She had thought that when Don Bacon’s wife was threatened and had to sleep with a gun under her pillow, the Republicans might have done something. But they haven’t. They are quiet or they do what Republican Mike Gallagher just did, quit.
Marcy said that right now it’s the moment where we have to figure out how to get Trump through the trial.
My question is “What can be done to deter his followers from making more threats to jurors?” I don’t expect to stop them entirely. But there ARE ways. Law enforcement and the courts in NYC knew this was coming. They should be prepared to protect the jurors, AND arrest the people who are threatening them.
I’m betting there have already been threats, but people haven’t been arrested yet. One thing that we have learned is that law enforcement doesn’t want to talk about the scale and scope of the threats. Why? They give multiple reasons, but some are excuses for their failures:
1) The need to confirm who made the threats
2) Confirm that the threats were violations of specific laws, and for True Threats, the intention of the people making the threat.
3) They need evidence for indictments for the laws that were broken
We have seen them go after the most blatant and obvious threats first, hoping that will act as a deterrent for others. They don’t charge people making vague mob type threats, because they are hard to pin down. But based on the history of the scale and scope of the PREVIOUS threats to judges, prosecutors, witnesses and their families, there will be LOTS to solid, clearly illegal threats to choose from.
Arrests aren’t deterrents if nobody knows they happened
If I was in charge of promoting a “Protect the Jurors” campaign, starting this week I’d be pushing stories about the people who have been arrested for threatening the jurors. If they don’t have current cases, I’d look at historical cases where the person was arrested and convicted. I would include threats to people in person, on the phone, via email and on social media.
I talked to Glenn Kirschner about the steps the legal system takes for protecting jurors (and witnesses). He said when jurors are contacted with threats or bribes, they are supposed to tell the court immediately. Then three law enforcement agencies are involved: local, state & Feds. Because of this there needs to be a coordinated response. The Feds do the interstate threats, like social media. The locals do the in-person threats. Here is what I want to know now, but we probably won’t be told by law enforcement:
Are the Feds already monitoring the juror’s social media accounts?
If not, when do they start? After they get their first threat?
The COURTS already know the names of all the jurors and their social media accounts. Are they being monitored by law enforcement looking for threats? If they spot threats, what do they do? Do they contact the social media companies with subpoenas to get the information of who is making the threat?
BTW, social media companies must comply with law enforcement subpoenas to provide information, it’s part of all of their TOS, that includes Truth Social and X.
Who is monitoring & counting the juror’s phone calls and emails?
We know from the threats to Judge Engoron’s clerk that she was getting constant calls. The court Judiciary protection service counted 275 pages of transcribed voicemail threats. But the only reason we know how huge it was is because the New York State Court public safety people took that information to the media because LAW ENFORCEMENT WASN’T DOING ENOUGH TO PROTECT Engoron’s clerk and staff.
People need to know that it is not the standard practice of law enforcement agencies to tell the media about the scale and scope of threats to people, nor the status of investigations.
Here’s the thing I’ve found out after years of investigating: law enforcement agencies don’t want to charge people for their online threats, but they CAN. When they do charge people for the threats, the arrests need to be publicized. But right now they aren’t. They aren’t even releasing the mugshots of the people arrested.
Did you know that Tyler Vogel, 26, from Lancaster New York was arrested for threatening AG Letitia James and State Supreme Court Justice Arthur Engoron? Did you see his mug shot in any media stories? I haven’t, and I looked. I did find ONE photo in a story about the threat. But it was on TikTok! I’m not using it here because I couldn’t confirm it was from an official source. I don’t know the reason for not providing the mugshot to the media, but I’m sure they have an answer. Maybe I’ll call and find out.
If law enforcement doesn’t want to put up the photos of people arrested for making threats, The media can put up the mugshots of the people who have been convicted for making threats on social media. Like Fredrick Francis Goltz, convicted for threatening Arizona election officials. Like Alan McCarty Jr., convicted for threatening to kill a judge.
Remember Taylor Taranto? He’s a Jan6er who went to Obama’s home with a van full of explosives after Trump posted the address on Truth Social.
Marcy talked about how hard it is to arrest people, even someone like Taylor Taranto a Jan6er defendant who was arrested near Obama’s home with a van full of explosives after Donald Trump posted Barack Obama’s Kalorama address on Truth Social.
“[Taranto] started engaging in whole martyrdom complex outside the DC jail and it got so bad he was such an disturbed person that even those nut jobs outside the DC jail said, “Please don’t come back.” And one day Donald Trump posted Barack Obama’s Kalorama address on Truth Social and that dude started stalking Barack Obama in Kalorama. And he was arrested for that stalking. He was arrested because he had a van with explosives in it. And he was he was hunting down a Secret Service protected former President, and it feels like you should be able to hold Trump accountable for that.”
Marcy Wheeler @Emptywheel on the Nicole Sandler show
“We really have to find a way to shame people for this kind of witness intimidation, because it’s going on everywhere. And it is one of the most toxic things in our politics right now. And we just haven’t had that conversation as a society.”
We are not going to “have a conversation as a society” unless we push for it. To do that
We need to demand for multiple people to be investigated, arrested and tried for their threats to jurors. If convicted and sent to prison we need to publicize their crimes big enough that they make it to Fox News audience, to act as a deterrent.
The DOJ and the New York Courts MUST make a big deal about the threats to jurors. There needs to be PR about it beyond putting out a press release. But it can’t just be about Trump, because as Marcy said, “Trump is very, very, very, very skilled at like toeing the line. He’s like a little child, a toddler who knows exactly how much he can get away with, and how to be most effective when he is doing that. And so in this case, in the Taylor Taranto case, all he did was post, somewhat public information. He didn’t say go, “Go stalk Barack Obama.” It is just the fact, and he knows this, that his followers are going to respond to that. And then people like Jack Posobiec, they’re going to ratchet it up, they’re going to say, “We need to defend our guy, we need to hunt out the dissident.”
What people need to know is that Taranto used his own Truth Social account to re-post the address. On Telegram, Taranto then stated, ‘We got these losers surrounded! See you in hell, Podesta’s and Obama’s ‘”
Taranto also told followers on his YouTube live stream that he was looking to get a “good angle on a shot,” prosecutors said.
Truth Social, GAB and Patriot(dot)Win have ALL provided detailed info in the past to law enforcement when a subpoena is provided. People on Social Media are NOT “anonymous” to the companies that post their information. Law enforcement can get their identities, can determine if they have likely broken laws, get a warrant and arrest them. The people will have a chance to challenge the arrest in the court system, this is good, some might be found to have NOT violated the law. BUT if there are NO PUBLIC arrests, then there will be NO deterrents for threats.
Marcy ended this week’s Nicole Sandler show with this New York Times story about a stalker of Lisa Page.
Ex-F.B.I. Lawyer Who Criticized Trump Says Bureau Failed to Warn Her About Stalker (Gift Link)
John C. Perez was barred from Camp Lejeune in North Carolina because of his obsession with Ms. Page, mass shootings and a fixation on child sex abuse, (Qanon stuff) The Marines told the the FBI about him, yet they didn’t take action or notify Ms. Page about him. Also, I looked for a mugshot of John C. Perez, I couldn’t find one.
The lesson of Donald Trump is everyone gets threats, everyone gets death threats, everyone gets stalked, and that never goes away. Whether or not he regains the presidency he is about using political violence, using threats of violence against everyone. And eventually you will be part of that, everyone.”